Sen. Panfilo Lacson

Kapihan sa Senado
w/attys. alex avisado & atty ronald ubaña (legal counsels for ex-T/Sgt. Vidal Doble)
August 30, 2007
transcript


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[hearings will start] the rules of the game will be agreed upon on Monday. I understand Sen. Biazon is scheduling organizational meeting Monday. The chairmen will decide how to go about with the proceedings, the rules of the game, including how to determine majority in voting purposes [electoral reforms will be admin watchdog] I wouldn’t want to prejudge Sen. Gordon. He has showed independence #

[will you play garci tapes] if necessary ... kung wala naman, why play it [to corroborate parts of speech] depends on how things develop. If Doble will identify annotator we have to play the tapes. I would settle for playing those portions that would make the voices of the annotators audible. Kung yan lang kailangan to identify the annotators just to prove Doble was part of the 14 who helped monitor the conversations of several personalities, Garci and PGMA included [how will you field legality issue] may I refer you to the lawyers [avisado] the issue of legality is still up in the air, there are pros and cons whether to use the tapes. For purposes of legality what we showed so far, the tapes are genuine unlike previous reports where they were questioned. What Doble showed so far through his testimony, the tapes in his possession are the real tapes that recorded the conversations of PGMA and former Commissioner Garcillano [illegally acquired] you have a point. But to say it is illegal one has to come forward and claim that was my voice, I am GMA, that was wiretapped without my consent. Garci has to come forward and say that is my voice ... I am charging anyone who used the tape without my consent. We don’t know if Garci or GMA will come forward and say they were the ones whose conversations were allegedly wiretapped #

[chairmen agreed you can play portions – SPML] walang agreement doon whether or not to play. There was no agreement. We didn’t evn tackle that during our caucus [would you push for it] personally di ako enthusiastic about playing the tapes. Kung may necessity for the members of the committee to hear the tapes, we should play it. I myself would move to have the tapes played before members of the committee [is that why from COW to 3 committee to avoid tension with palace] not at all. Some senators were saying ayaw nila ma-hamper ang hearings sa ibang committee. We gave it serious consideration in arriving at a consensus, sa 3 committees directly involved sa issues at hand. Defense, electoral reforms and BR, sila ang directly involved in the issues raised sa privilege speech [still the entire senate] kaya pumayag kami. Defense has 6 members, BR has 7 or 9, and it would not involve the whole Senate siguro mas mahaba discussion. Kaya kami sumama, what’s the difference between the issue being heard by 3 committees with all the members anyway? [nawala ang stigma of ‘whole’] pareho rin. The Senate leadership mandated kami siguro morally, legally, constitutionally to protect the interest of any of the committees. The committee itself represents the whole Senate #

[will inquiry focus on whether isafp is illegally wiretapping] that is 1 point we want to confirm from ISAFP. They threatened to invoke 464 but some personalities mentioned by Doble no longer in executive branch, some already retired. It doesn’t matter. They are no longer with ISAFP but are still with AFP or executive branch, kung invoke 464, we should warn them. SC already ruled on unconstitutionality of 464. Dapat alam ng Malacañang. That’s why Apostol deemed it wise to ask SC, there was a plan to ask the SC ano ang interpretation ng division on 464 [some generals in tapes already retired, can be summoned] Abu, Danga, Kyamko, Garci is no longer with the Comelec. For all intents, he is a civilian now. If a subpoena reaches him signed by SP, pwede siya ipaaresto #

[will doble drop more bombs - avisado] given the chance, tingin ko marami. Ang portions ng tapes na na-forward di lahat. According to Doble marami pang personalities ang wiretapped by ISAFP at the time. And regarding use of the Garci tapes maraming position kami as lawyers, kailangan lumabas muna ang aggrieved party, persons part o fthose conversations, Arroyo, Garci, aminin nila kami yan, wiretap nyo conversation namin, wag nyo play yan o kakasuhan namin kayp. They are the only persons who can invike that right. The DOJ or any other person or some other senators, di sila aggrieved parties, di nila pwede kasuhan at this point unless may admissions muna na si PGMA yan at Garci ang mga nag-uusap sa tapes na wiretapped ng ISAFP [doble credibility] isa rin yan sa tinanong namin ni Atty. Obaña [obaña] based sa several times na Doble went to our office, I can personally say that the statements ewre really true. As far as I can see, nakita namin sa office, from the heart niya sinabi ang statements na yan. Doon sa mga statements niya, siguro mga ilang beses sinabi ang worry niya na pwede siya kasuhan pag lumabas siya, pero nandoon determiniation niya to tell the truth to the Filipino peopke [avisado] 2 years ago he could have opted to quketly fade away. But he also told us he was bothered by his conscience. 2 years ago gusto niya suportahan ang announcement ni NBI Ong regarding the tapes. Nga lang di natuloy ang paglabas dahil according to him AFP kidnapped, particularly Abu, ang pamilya. That kept him from coming out in the open. 2 years after kako maraming magdududa sa iyo, ngayon napakadetalyado. Sabi niya bahala na, alam ko maraming magagalit at matatamaan kung yan ikagagaan ng loob ko sasabihin ko lahat #

[how high did the orders go - avisado] if you notice sa interview hindi Q and A, it was free-flowing para makuha natin ang comfortable in revealing sensitive disclosures. Sabi niya, once kaharap siya, di pa lahat siguro sinabi sa amin. Di pa lahat. Marami pa siya sasabihin once he comes face to face with a panel interested in the issue. Maybe he can really say gaano kataas, kung sino ang nasa likod at nag-utos na wiretap si GMA. Nagulat din kami, included si Defensor. So kung purely opposition lang, medyo somehow consistent. Pero kung titingnan mo sa interview may nabanggit, Defensor and other persons na di kalinya ng opposition [spml] di mo nasabi kung taga-Ermita? [avisado] confirm kung under oath na #

[doble witness for sale - avisado] una, if you talk to Doble, di kailangan ng spokesman. Kami di kami haharap dahil di kami kailangan. He can answer your questions directly, you can gauge whether nagsasabi siya ng totoo. As far as we’re concerned he’s not a professinal witness. Fro our years of experience makikita mo kung nagbebenta ito ng testimony. Kaya rin referred sa amin ni SPML, for us to gauge his demeanor, kung suspicious kami. We asked him probing questions. Isa lang din, it was not a 1-time meeting with Doble. Series of meetings yan with the lawyers, makikita consistency niya. He went to our office at doon kinausap siya [obaña] kung witness for sale siya di siya kakabahan. Nariyan ang kaba kung nagkukuwento siya, until such time nakuha namin at least partial ng story niya #

[where is sammy ong - spml] I have no idea, I have no dealings with Atty. Ong ever since. Wala akong idea who has him, under whose custody [matagal na siya di surface] Sen. Biazon has an idea. He was telling me he knows how to get in touch with Ong. He might be present in 1 of the hearing [ermita behind wiretaps] it’s purely speculative on my part. Why Defensor? Aside from Garci he’s the only odd man out sa list. We should go further than that. We should analyze why Defensor. Siyempre sino ang posibleng nakaaway niya sa Cabinet within the circle? Di ba may rift sila? That’s speculation, don’t take it seriously [cabinet level] another basis for that speculation, sino possibly malapit kay Danga? Doble mentioned Danga in 1 interview. Kanino possibly pwede mag-report si Danga? Remember, pag may intel operation, broken ang chiain of command. There’s an informal chain of command followed, no longer from NCO to superior or chief of office or branch. Di na gnaoon. It’s common knowledge among intel community na pag may special intel ops, yung chain of command doesn’t matter [need to know] compartmentalize sila. Di susunod mag-report ka sa CS, pwede ka dumirekta sa SND who at the time from 2003 to 2005, 2004 after elections Cruz was appointed, but whom did he replace? Di ba si Ermita? Sa thick ng ops, Ermita was SND #

[through doble ma-pinpoint sino mastermind] I’m sure if you ask Defensor that same question who do you think would gain from wirtapping you? I can venture a wild guess may sasabihin siyang pangalan [patawag defensor] di ko alam, depend sa members. I don’t think it’s necessary to call him. It depends how things will develop later on. Sa ngayon I don’t see the necessity. If you want him called, we will call him [danga gave order?] a comrade? Maybe a higher authority close to him [from military] military or civilian. Sino pagkakatiwalaan kundi ang ka-close sa military who has position, wherewithal and guts to do it. Si Danga at the time was J-2, staff in charge of intel. At 1 point concurrent pa yata ISAFP as far as I can recall [executive had hand] not institutional. There’s no way for PGMA to know about the op, she was a victim of the wirtap by accident because she called one of the objects of the op [a clique] it could be that. But at this time it’s speculation, based on the circumstances sa wiretap, mga personalities involved. Doon makakabuo ka di pa conclusion but opinion sino ang possible may kinalaman. I don’t think yung responsibility would stop with Doble and company. 14 sila NCOs, they were reorting to senior officers, Sumayo, Rebong, Sagge. Sumayo was MIG-21 commander technical intel group. Who was ISAFP chief? Marlon Quevedo #

[garci got phone] yes, Zuce testified ganoon ang pangyayari. It is wrong to say GMA was wiretapped. It was Garci who was tapped

[objective of hearings to find out who mastermind is] no, to come up with remedial measures. I already intimated to Sen. Biazon one of the ojectives we will look at, how to strengthen oversight committee on intel. Meron tayong oversight committee pero di nagfu-function. In the US napakalakas ng oversight committee on intel. It’s exe-legislative mix. CIA director, congressional oversight members. Sila nagde-determine how intel funds are to be spent. Dito hindi. Pag intel fund nobody can look into how the funds are being spent. Close ang audit dito. But 1 positive outcome nitong investigation could be that. The oversight committee on intel could be strengthened, exe-legis. Isa yan sa tinitingnan natin #

[prospects of doble na malagay sa WPP - avisado] I think that would be a personal decision and tough decision to make for Doble. Kailangan may tiwala siya sa magse-secure sa knaya. At DOJ may irony. We filed criminal cases vs Garci and these were dismissed by the DOJ saying di naman namin na-prove na umalis si Garci, fake ang recordings, walang lumabas to authenticate. Isa rin yan sa sinabi bakit ngayon ka lang lumabas, dati walang authetnticate. Sabi niya sana maintindihan mo ako, noon hawak ng AFP ang pamilya ko. Kaya we believed him, under threat family niya. Ngayonif and when he decides to apply to be admitted to WPP of DOJ, it will be a personal decision. But I don’t think papayag siya #

[ermita to be invited - spml] sabi ko wild speculation #

[lighthoues project willing to testify- avisado] dati sabi niya pero takot, di tulad niya naglakas-loob. Lumabas na si Doble, di nag-reenlist sa AFP pero karamihan sa kasamahan sa Lighthouse active pa rin sa AFP. We don’t expect pag active member ka ng AFP testify ka vs kasamahan mo. So far siya lang [doble testimony needs to be corroborated before it can stand] not necessarily. If the testimony before proceeding is credible it can be materially corroborated by some independent evidence, his testimony will stand. Una doon, based on credibility. Testimony niya detailed. Sabi niya ano mission nila, sinabi rin ilang teams bumubuo, ano ga respective assignments nila. Based doon doon natin nakikita sino nag-annotate, sabi niya kami yan. Ikaw ba nag-annotate? Opo. Sino sa Lighthouse naka-monitor nang tumawag si GMA kay Garci. Sabi niya very clear, ako yan. Based on these declarations very categorical statements niya, tending to prove genuine ang Garci tapes at may conversations between GMA and Garci [1 of the annotators need to corroborate] tama yan. That’s in the works sa ngayon. We are hoping pag nauna si Doble may maglakas-loob para sundan ang sinabi. Ginagawa ni Doble sinusundan niya unang announcement ni Ong. Sinasabi niya pinapatunayan niya may Garci tapes. Sabi ni Ong this is the mother of all tapes, yan ang galing kay Doble [you need lito santiago too] baka di na po. Footage kasama si Ong at Doble punta sila San Carlos, sinundo siya ni Villegas. Participation ni Santiago as confidant of Doble might not be that material sa investigation #

[threats to doble] maraming threats. Yun nga lang alam niya rin yan ang kapalit ng paglabas niya. Sa dami-dami ng matatamaan maraming mabigat na tao na involved na sinabi niyang wiretapped, marmai ring makikinabang kung ma-silence siya as part of damage control. On a day-to-day basis nagdadasal siya. Sana he will live long enough to testify [nature of threats - spml] ibang threat sa dyaryo, makukulong siya. Ang nakakatakot walang threats. I told him you should worry more pag walang threat ka nakikita pinagpaplanuhan ka. But as long as open ang threats, nakaka-assuage ng kaunti yan #

[other witnesses - spml] he is the Senate’s witness [may iba pa] yes, yes [sino/ilan] siguro ipapatawag, may nag-move papatawag galing service provider. It seems sa ngayon si Rebong ang lumalabas na conduit, as per Doble’s statement si Rebong or someone higher nag-coordinate. It was Rebong who gave them the Nokia 3600 phones na preprogrammed #

[you have to invite garci] depende sa committee. I cannot say at this point. Sa ngayon di pa rin kailangan [parts of televised hearings in house, when escudero asked him if he knew garci, he said he does not and if you refer to me as garci I will not answer you] in the first place walang direct encounter si Doble kay Garci except through the tapes. Let’s see. I don’t want to preempt the committees. Sa organizational meeting more or less ma-decision sino ipapatawag [if garci denies he was on the tapes, where do you go - avisado] mas maganda yan, we can proceed with playing of the tapes para mapaliwanag in detail in Doble ... sino ang ibang tumawag, ano pinagusapan. At least from there, maybe medyo makakahinga tayo nang maluwag walang threat of violation of the anti-wiretap law [garci was told to go to greenhills, bong pineda gave him cell phone - spml] this is wide open. Kung saan pupunta ang investigation susundan namin yan. There are things we cannot control in the course of the investigation. We’ll proceed from there kung saan pupunta #

[abalos got perks from zte - spml] doon mo makita ang lawak ng web gaano ka-influential ang Malacañang or some department, at least over the chairman. May disenteng commissioners na di ma-control ng Malacañang. Bakit nakikihalo, assuming totoo kay Cong. Padilla, bakit nakikihalo sa transaction ng DOTC ang Comelec chair, so much so that if you remember, anak ni Mendoza was also a candidate and won a congressional seat in Batangas? Bakit Comelec chair nakihalo sa transaction which is purely executive? That’s a $55m question #

ambush

spml

08-30

[intel funds] it’s about time that we should not really control but at least oversee all these intel funds being allocated. We have the power of the purse and we have oversight functions. Baka ito yung magandang isang positive outcome ng hearings, ang sa intel and intel funds [how high does it go] we can only speculate at this point. May nakikita tayong opening to find out who the masterminds are [speculation is ermita] I was only basing it on the personalities involved in the wiretap operations sa nag-o-operate at sa receiving end like Defensor. I’d like to ask Defensor that same question. Who do you think would be interested to find out kung anong activities mo during those times that Lighthouse was being implemented [defensor] ang mag-substantiate niyan if someone in the know would point to him. There could be circumstantial evidence that could prove sino ang mastermind [gma mastermind] no way. Kung siya, di siya tatawag. She’ll just call for Garci to talk to him personally [close relative of gma] if it was a close relative of GMA he should have warned her not to make a conversation [if it was ermita, what would he gain] first, sa camp ni FPJ, counterintelligence. They would want to find out ano plano sa election and find out kung may slip na lalabas sa campaign strategies and kung may makitang dirty tricks or plans to say also participate in rigging the elections, that could also be an explosive issue against the camp of FPJ [defensor connection, nadamay] nandoon na rin lang eh. Magwa-wiretap ka rin lang, may capacity may capability so mag-iisip ka sino ang pwede natin wiretap [inside job] apparently this exposes the rift between or among Cabinet members if at all sa circle ng pangulo kung sa Malacañang ang nag-mastermind ng wiretap. Iniisip kasi natin, why Defensor of all people? He’s known to be very close to the president. Bakit siya nasama doon [so mastermind is in gma circle] I personally believe it’s within the circle of the president. It’s obvious na ang ... kaaway niya. Alangan taga-opposition ang mag-wiretap noon [betrayal] it’s a betrayal. Kasi kung may operation, at least if you’re close to the president and if you’re a member of the Cabinet you should at least have informed the CIC or President, ma’am may operation tayo. Of course may deniability yan, silang 2 nag-usap, sasabihing walang ganoon. Tapos be wary about using phones or cell phones. Bakit di informed si GMA? Clearly betrayal yan [close allies to blackmail her?] that’s also a possibility. Alam nila may ganoon alam nila nakatawag bakit di disposed ang tape? But naisahan sila ni Doble. Aside from the raw tapes na sinasabi nilang ibibigay sa immediate superior nagtabi sila ng master tape [gma could not be held liable for wiretap] she cannot. For cheating, di ba? But we’ve gone past that era sa impeachment. We’re not after impeaching her. Personally I’d just want to have closure to this issue. We’re not really after the necks of anybody #

[patutunguhan nito, reduction ng intel fund] not necessarily but yung oversight. Yung procedure, yung control ng paggamit ng intel funds. Di control but a very strong oversight function of Congress [identify sources of funds] dapat kami mag-determine ng intel fund ng agency na ito dito ninyo gagamitin. Parang itemize na natin. Di pwede sa illegal activity dapat gamitin ito sa possible, not necessarily specific projects. But anong direction ng intelligence function ng government [at end of year, pwede audit] hindi, kasi no-audit. Pero at least ang pag-allocate at paggamit, pwedeng from time to time ma-oversee ng executive-legislative oversight committee kung paano ginagamit. At saka kung anong projects, ano ang progress ng intel operations on certain matters [people will be held accountable this time] I think some people will be held accountable this time because may witness, dati walang nag-testify except ang tape na kinukwestyon pa #

[will you insist on a committee report this time] yes. Kailangan may closure, may committee report [individual report] the 3 committees will come up with 1 joint committee report except when 1 or 2 committees would not conform or agree with the main committee report. So gagawa sila ng parang dissenting opinion or a separate committee report kung may contrast. Kung ma-agree-han isa lang ang committee report. At the end of the day sa plenary bobotohan namin which to adopt #

[afp clique to have continued hold on gma?] kung ganoon dapat wiretap nila si GMA #

[norby to be witness, as per biazon] according to Sen. Biazon he would want to invite [is norby material] in his view, yes. Pero ako, manggugulo lang yan #

[mastermind is part of clique sa palace, very close to gma, with ties to military] at least more or less clearly ma-establish natin somebody ang rift sa Malacañang and sino ang responsible may control sa military. Kung wala di ka pwede mag-order kay Danga, or at least clear sa kanila dagdag mo ito [so former military man ang mastermind] sa mga nag-implement at mga target meron siyang something to gain out of sino ang tinatarget. Nakakapagtaka bakit halo si Mike. Defensor did not deny he was wiretapped. Parang sabi ko nga, yan nga #

[betrayal] talagang betrayal eh. Kung sino ang nag-mastermind he didn’t care at all kung mapapahamak ang presidente [so mastermind is part of clique] posibleng within the circle. It could have been precipitated by a clique or rift among members of the inner circle. And he should be someone who has influence over the implementers. May ties sa military [former military man] ... [can defensor be charged] no, object siya ng wiretapping eh. Ang susi to find out who the mastermind was, si Danga. Siya lang ang pwedeng link [why was garci the medium] si Garci, counterintelligence yan. They knew or at least the mastermind knew Garci was contracted to perform mischief sa election. They wanted to make sure he was doing his part of the bargain religiously. Kasi kung niloko rin sila ni Garci may kausap sa kabilang camp yari sila. Actually itong wiretap is basically a function of counterintelligence. Of course intel din pero kung wiretap mo kakampi mo, counterintelligence yan [will you cal danga] I think he should be called [arrest] depends on consensus of the committees [should gma watch her back] the president should always watch his or her back all the time. Ganoon talaga yan [will you call SND at the time] oo, pwede, especially kung may indications. Of course, the SND alam natin has control over the AFP [tatawagin]

[gma says she has a country to run, says economy up] poverty is still at a very high level. I don’t know where she’s coming from, her basis for saying umaangat ang economy #